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Post by Dr. Dan on Mar 16, 2004 14:03:52 GMT -5
Wiccas call themselves "Neopagans" -- the definition of pagan is:
There is general agreement that the word "Pagan" comes from the Latin word "paganus." Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the precise meaning of the word in the fifth century CE and before.
Christians used the term to ridicule country folk who tenaciously held on to what the Christians considered old-fashioned, outmoded Pagan beliefs. Those in the country were much slower in adopting the new religion of Christianity than were the city folks. They still followed the Greek state religion, Roman state religion, Mithraism, various mystery religions, etc., long after those in urban areas had converted.
Dan says: Ok, so they used the term to degrade country folk who werent christians.
Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, "paganus" came to mean "civilian" as opposed to "military." Christians often called themselves "miles Christi" (Soldiers of Christ). Thus, the non-Christians became "pagani" -- non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be implied.
Dan says: Again, degrading people who arent 'military' and christian.
By the third century CE, its meaning evolved to include all non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in widespread use today.
Dan Says: Well look at that, means something evil now, (as if it wanst implied before...)
They also say:
We recommend that this should be the primary definition of "Pagan," for the simple reason that many Wiccans and other Neopagans embrace the term for themselves. "Paganism" in this sense refers to a range of spiritual paths which are Earth centered -- involving their members living in harmony with the Earth and observing its cycles. These are often Neopagan religions based on the deities, symbols, practices, seasonal days of celebration and other surviving components of ancient religions, which had been long suppressed. For example: The Druidic religion is based on the faith and practices of the ancient Celtic professional class;
Followers of Asatru adhere to the ancient, pre-Christian Norse religion;
Wiccans trace their roots back to the pre-Celtic era in Europe.
Other Neo-pagans follow Roman, Greek, Egyptian and other traditions.
So...Heather...your telling me that you dont believe the bible, which preeches goodness and no-sin and happy lessons for all, but you believe these people who threw together a religion using a dirogotory name that the christains gave non believers, and created a 'religion' to oppose the caothlic church, while still trying to mask their obvious opposition with words like "Harmony" and "Earh Centered" and "faith" but have no other backing at all? yeah...ok....whatever....
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Post by Cobra5 on Mar 16, 2004 14:20:19 GMT -5
A) Heather, you said you don't believe in any god or supreme being at all, and now you a preaching a goddess? B) Witchcraft is devil worship. Dating as far back as history can go, anyone possesing magic was considered evil. This is not specific to any particular religion- the bible says it, american indians believed it, orientals believed it... it was universal. Even people who did seem to have supernatural powers- Prophets, which-doctors, etc- that were praised by a religion were said to have meerly been a 'medium', if you will, of God, and did not have nay power themselves. This belief that Witchcraft is not evil is very recent (it was created wither within our generation or the genoration before us). It was created simply becuase people thought all of that stuff was "cool" and wanted to be "unique", but didn't want to be evil. So they simply changed some stuff, and said that everybody else was wrong. And of course, people believed them and played along. C) Wicca isn't a religion at all. It started as the medicinal use of herbs and prayer to the Christian God... at at the time, when medicine consisted of nothing more then amputation and bloodletting, people were facinated by it. So of course, stories began to develope. These were all rumors, and of course, there are people that will by into and play with them. Soon enough stories of the 'wicca' being of a different blood and getting power from some divine being began to circualte. So if you believe in Wicca you believe in Christianity. They are the same thing. A 'wicca' was just a Christian doctor. Everything else was made up by people who wished they were more then they actually are. D)There is a BIG difference between believing in a massive, founded religion and believing in some crap a lonely guy makes up to make himself feel more unique. As dan stated, hudreds of people die every day and wars have gone on for centuries and centuries over this AND people have been believing in them for thousands of years, if not more. This other stuff... its just stuff a guy made up in his spare time. It stands very much to reason that there is some basis to these larger teachings. Not to mention the fact that these teachings, possably being founded far apart in total isolation of eachother, STILL contain similar (if not exact) retellings of events and miricles. Christianity describes Noah's arc, and in the mesopotamic era people told stories of a man who built an arc to save the humans from a flood created by angry Gods (Utnapishtim was the equivilent of Noah). And, as said... I could just make anything up, make it sound good, claim that it's real, and people would believe. That's what people do, and people do believe. In fact, I think I might just try that, and see what kind of reaction I can get. E) I had an E, but I forget what it was...  |
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Post by Tassatul on Mar 16, 2004 17:07:22 GMT -5
D)There is a BIG difference between believing in a massive, founded religion and believing in some crap a lonely guy makes up to make himself feel more unique. As dan stated, hudreds of people die every day and wars have gone on for centuries and centuries over this AND people have been believing in them for thousands of years, if not more. This other stuff... its just stuff a guy made up in his spare time. It stands very much to reason that there is some basis to these larger teachings. Not to mention the fact that these teachings, possably being founded far apart in total isolation of eachother, STILL contain similar (if not exact) retellings of events and miricles. Christianity describes Noah's arc, and in the mesopotamic era people told stories of a man who built an arc to save the humans from a flood created by angry Gods (Utnapishtim was the equivilent of Noah). And, as said... I could just make anything up, make it sound good, claim that it's real, and people would believe. That's what people do, and people do believe. In fact, I think I might just try that, and see what kind of reaction I can get. Well, I agree with most of your parts, but I do have something to differ on. Who says that people need to die, to fight wars for something to make it a religion? Why would something need to be believed for thousands of years before its considered a 'religion'? Personally, I think that if you believe in something, it can be a religion. Whether you have a following of half the world or 15 close friends, if your truely believe in it, its a religion. Even if its some offshoot, like you said Will, just something somebody made up and took out the evilness part to make it 'okay', its still counts as a belief system. |
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Post by Dr. Dan on Mar 16, 2004 17:59:10 GMT -5
Yes and no.
A religion is widely accepted AS a religion.
A Personal belief is something that you can believe (I posted this just prior to your post tassatul, but my huge long post didnt get through cause of the "too many connections" crap that I keep getting.
I personally know the difference between right and wrong, and I have a set of values that I follow and I have a conscience that tells me what to do and what to not do. I do not need a religion to tell me what is right and wrong. Most people do need a religion to tell them, becasue they cant figure it out for themselves and need the reassurance of having other people who think the same way they do all around them (once a week?).
A religion is a mass-belief. A Belief is a personal following...there is a difference.
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Post by BugHunter on Mar 16, 2004 23:32:08 GMT -5
Thank you! Finally, some sense! A lot of good points have been made. 50 points for Will, Dan, and Tass, hehehe, get it? But man, we gotta learn how to express our thoughts without pointing fingers or attacking each other better. And I wasn't angry when i made my last post. By the way, Christianity is not about saying my religion is better than yours, duh. It is also not about following "religion", as in all the so called formalities and rules and the "you can only do this and have to do that" which men have created. Its about following the ways of God. The big guy, the OG, the Original Good guy, lol. Oh yea, and that Jesus died for our sins (just had to put that in. That is an important part). It is also NOT my duty to teach you guys the details (which i havent exactly done...i dont think). I can only point you in the right direction. Its up to YOU to choose your path, not me. I made my decision on my own, although it took a long time before that happened. So anyway, yea... Besides, I'm still learning myself. Hence the - Novice of God. I ain't a Man of God yet. Still so many flaws to work out...so, many, flaws...  Damn straight. Amen to that. First, i agree, there is nothing in Christianity that says to make war with thy neighbor. The people in history that have done that have... i dunno... misinterpreted the teachings of there is only one true way. God never said to destroy everyone else. He does not say to diss or condemn pagans or whatever so called blasphemous class of people or people with different views or non-believers. You're suppost to help them. Help them see the way. And you're not suppost to force them into anything. (I hope i'm not forcing anything with you guys) You're also right in that religion is something you strongly believe in. But more specifically, you guys should understand that its also something you encorporate your life around. So if you encorporate your life around money, then money is your religion. If you encorporate your life around witchcraft, then witchcraft is your religion. If you encorporate your life around religion, then religion is your religion . Hell, it can even be gaming...unfortunately, depending on how you look at it  . Right now I'm trying (still new at it...) really hard to encorporate my life around God and his ways, not exactly religion (not saying that religion is bad, if in the correct form). But I'm afraid gaming also has a strong grasp on me as well *cough*... which, as much as i hate to admit it, is bad.... So in other words, anything really can be a religion. Doesn't make them right though. By the way, did i mention that I'm also a Baptist? So yea... I'm here to spread the gospel, hehe. (not saying I'm good at it) But first and foremost, I'm a Christian and a follower of God. (just gotta make sure you guys know that, hehe, as in, i aint no stiff necked, rigid "You're suppost to only do this" type of guy). Oh yea, did i mention I'm a follower of God? ;D Oh yea, and Dan, stop saying I'm gonna beat you up for speaking your mind. I aint like that no more. SO SHUT UP OR I'LL KICK YOUR A##!!!  hahaha |
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Post by Dr. Dan on Mar 17, 2004 17:00:26 GMT -5
LOL Ok, I'm sorry, I'll stop. Its just..I think everybody else will agree that you have changed so much over the past year or so. You used to be so...well...angry to put it lightly. You have changed so much, and I congradulate you for doing so. Whether or not it is God, or the religion or whatever else, it still came from you, and I applaud you. *Stands and claps* |
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Post by Tassatul on Mar 17, 2004 18:40:44 GMT -5
Whoo! Well, Im just happy that we are making our way through a discuss without yelling at each other or anything like that. Good job all! Unfourtunantly, I have nothing else to say |
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Post by Dr. Dan on Mar 18, 2004 18:38:34 GMT -5
yeah I'm gonna pat myself on the back!! wOOt!
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Post by copyKatt on Mar 18, 2004 18:52:56 GMT -5
yeah really guys, its actully have a discussion/debate on religion! and no real derrogatory yelling and losing temper! we should all be proud ;D everyone can have a Katt point for this one ;D.. but no one really keeps track of them ever since chronos left , but you can have them anyway so then. back to religion, im curious as to what heather has to say about all this |
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Post by Dr. Dan on Mar 18, 2004 19:16:02 GMT -5
I'll try and find more emotion-inspiring writings for us to debate about....  |
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Post by BugHunter on Mar 18, 2004 19:18:45 GMT -5
Shut up Dan  LOL Ok, I'm sorry, I'll stop. Its just..I think everybody else will agree that you have changed so much over the past year or so. You used to be so...well...angry to put it lightly. You have changed so much, and I congradulate you for doing so. Whether or not it is God, or the religion or whatever else, it still came from you, and I applaud you. *Stands and claps* Well i believe He helped in a big way. I am nothing without His guidance  And you're all just lucky I've discovered the true meaning of Christianity, otherwise I'd be yelling and screaming stuff and saying anything different is stupid |
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Post by Cobra5 on Mar 18, 2004 19:24:54 GMT -5
SHUT UP! YOU'RE ALL WRONG! I'M RIGHT! Actually... I also don't have anything else to really say... |
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Post by BugHunter on Mar 18, 2004 19:31:40 GMT -5
haha! I got the last word, lol ;D. Well that is until Heather says something. Ok, ok, I'll try to remember humility more often...
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Post by Dr. Dan on Mar 18, 2004 19:35:37 GMT -5
Yeah really francis! I humiliate myslef all the time!
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Post by BugHunter on Mar 18, 2004 19:38:48 GMT -5
 idiot...
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. Right now I'm trying (still new at it...) really hard to encorporate my life around God and his ways, not exactly religion (not saying that religion is bad, if in the correct form). But I'm afraid gaming also has a strong grasp on me as well *cough*... which, as much as i hate to admit it, is bad.... 
hahaha
idiot...