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Post by BugHunter on May 19, 2006 21:53:30 GMT -5
A Jedi would not participate in a competition to prove if he is better or worse than an opponent in the first place. Domination is not the point of the Jedi. He accepts that they are the way they are. So therefore, he would not get into a wrestling match where there could be a chance for his emotions to get out of hand and cause damage to another that is not necessary. Another point one should be aware of is "what goes around, comes around". There is always a chance that you could run into the person you did something bad to because he pissed you off, again. "Evil begats evil" a wise man once said.
Remember, it may say no emotion, but it also says there is peace. You once pointed out that one with no emotion could be a psychotic killer that kills with no remorse. That contradicts the code of peace. When one is with peace, he does not go about being a killer. A killer may go about saying he is not bothered by what he does and that he is with peace, but i can assure you there is a lot of sh*t going on upstairs.
The Jedi exist in the universe. Therefore the universe incorporates them into the scheme of things. Whatever they do is still a part of the big plan or picture. What the Jedi feel they should do is to be protectors of that universe.
Like I said, u're not really free at the top if u're trying to run a tight ship. But if u dont give a crap about who you're taking advantage of, then as free as the wind u shall be.
ever hear about the socialist system? Basically its where human needs come before monetary gain (which is unheard of in the US). Before u say one system is the best, one should research all other options and also do full research on the option they are in favor of.
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Post by Tassatul on May 19, 2006 22:58:31 GMT -5
Forgive me. . . A dude wants to fight you because thats just how he rolls. He wont back down, and so you are forced to fight to defend yourself. You dont really want to fight, and so he manages to beat the snot out of you. Second scenario: Dude wants to fight you because thats how he rolls. He wont back down, so you are forced to fight to defend yourself. During the course of the fight, he spits in your eye and kicks you in the balls, grinning the whole time. This pisses you off. You fight harder and defeat the bad guy, not pummeling him into the ground, but merely overpowering him untill he gives up.
Heck, I just thought of an even better example because its a real life thing. Average, everyday people have been known to lift burning cars up so loved ones can escape from underneath. This feat normally requires a fair amount of strength, but like I said, average, everyday people. You know what made them able to do that? Emotion. They saw the danger, they got scared and angry and brave all in the same moment, the adrenaline started pumping, and they lift a car.
Nicely done on the peace part. Not sure if I have a rebuttal there, other than the above.
And the Sith don't?
I'd still rather be the CEO than the office worker.
It doesn't work. People are inherently greedy, so in the end, someone is using this "human needs come first" to advance their own position. It happened to communism, which, when written on paper, is the best system out there. But it doesnt work in real life. I daresay the same is true of Socialism.
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Post by BugHunter on May 20, 2006 15:30:40 GMT -5
A Jedi is not to engage an opponent unless all alternatives have been considered and tried. If the dude wants to fight and will not back down at all then you just get out of there. If all alternatives have failed and escape is no longer an option then you should stand your ground. Even still, a Jedi should never fight out of anger or revenge and whatnot.
Great feats can be accomplished through emotion, yes. They can also be done out of duty as well. You know what is happening and u know what must be done and you just do it. This says nothing to negate what you said though.
The Sith dont what? I didn't say that they do not exist or that they aren't incorporated into the larger scheme of things. But according to the codes, the Jedi want to be one with the universe and the Sith want to be one with themselves. They have no obligation at all to protect the universe or preserve anything.
You're right, communism is the best system on paper. And a socialist system may never happen in real life (at least not as things are now). Still, I say a change somewhere is needed. It may or may not be too late for our generation to change, but thats why you gotta make the most out of every generation. Changing a society so that it is no longer greedy and selfish starts with the youth. You gotta educate them about something better. You gotta give them the right values and stuff. Money and poon-tang are not good values.
If u ask me, a change somewhere might happen soon. The gap between the rich and the poor is widening once again. Thats just kindling begging for a match to light it up.
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Post by Tassatul on May 21, 2006 12:49:24 GMT -5
You keep skipping out on my point by finding loopholes. Lets say every possible way to avoid the fight has been exhausted and you must fight, there is no other way to solve the problem. Then the same scenario as above, where in one fight you lose because you dont want to fight, and in the second possibility, you get more fierce because of your anger and manage to win. I'm not even saying you are fighting out of anger or revenge. I'm saying, you have to fight, you dont really want to, but then something triggers your anger in mid-fight, and it helps you win. Exactly. Both the Sith and Jedi are incorporated into the universe. So how can you say that what the Jedi choose to accomplish is better than what the Sith choose to pursue? If the universe has a plan and everything happens for a reason, isnt it equally possible that the Sith are the "better" way? I'm going to totally twist this statement, bare with me  The way I see it, the only way something is going to change is some sort of revolution. Bloody, mostly likely. And yet, the Jedi try to preserve peace and harmony. Seems like, if our universes were put together, the Jedi would be standing next to the current power untill its too late (like they did with Palpatine). In my mind, the "match to light it up" would be a "Sith" who thought he could do better, and decided to take action rather than hope it gets better. Plus, I like capitalism because I plan on being stupidly rich ;D |
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Post by Fargo Squire on May 21, 2006 14:06:15 GMT -5
I'm going to hop in on the whole "This is how it's supposed to be" deal.
We can't actually just assume everything's happening because it should. If we make that assumption, then the whole struggle between good and bad is null. You'd have something that sounded a bit like the Jedi code: "There is no good or evil; There is only the Universe's will."
If everything happens the way it needs to, then both sides are right, and nothing is ever wrong.
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Jalathas
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Post by Jalathas on May 21, 2006 14:12:45 GMT -5
I'm going to play the middleman, and say neither code is something that one should follow, at least not to the exclusion of other philosophy. A false "calm" created by supressed emotion can only lead to inner conflict and turmoil, trying to get to the surface. This is one reason that so many Jedi went Sith and followed Revan and Malak in the Jedi Civil War (KOTOR era). However, unbridled rage and emotion are just as bad. They cause the sort of outbursts and schisms that lead to outer turmoil and eventually destroy any order the Sith try to create. Luke has the right idea when he teaches a balance of Light and Dark. You shouldn't supress your emotions, but you shouldn't let them rule you, either. The best way is to hold back the emotions that can cause problems and rifts(such as jealousy and anger), while allowing the good emotions(like love and happiness) free range.
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Post by BugHunter on May 21, 2006 18:59:33 GMT -5
What loopholes? I'm just telling it as a TRUE Jedi should handle a situation as according to the codes and a Jedi is not to handle a fight the way you're saying. Just because you want a Sith answer isn't my problem. A Jedi is never to let his anger get involved in a fight whatsoever, so therefore is responsible for not letting his anger get triggered at all. And if you lose in a fight, then you lose in a fight, not much you can do there now can you? A Jedi is not to fear loss.
Who said my point was to say the Jedi is "better" than the Sith? The point I want to make is that the Sith way leads to evil. Thats all.
Thats exactly what my Sociology professor said, that there will be a violent revolution, and I actually agree. If you look all throughout history, all major changes in our societies occurred after a major revolution - the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Civil Rights Movement, the Feminist Movement. But if you ask me, with the way society is screwed today, a TRUE Jedi would not preserve it. He would realize that this is not true peace and would defend the poor and the oppressed people. But a Jedi would not incite a war. So you're right in saying a Sith would be needed to start that. A Jedi would only get involved because action is needed.
Well luckily Star Wars is a fictional universe. In the real world, of course there is right and wrong. Even if there is no good or evil (and I'm not saying thats true) one should still be responsible for his actions and realize that all interactions come with a consequence. One who does not realize this is no better than a sociopath.
Man, I feel like an elderly man explaining things like Yoda. All I keep hearing is "if, if, if...".
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Post by daft alchemist on May 22, 2006 8:00:11 GMT -5
mmMMMmm. The Jedi code flawed is not.  I think the only reason the Jedi would have such a weird code anyway is so they don't make a really huge mistake because they get emotionally involved with a situation, and then people might think they're not the good guys either because of that. Please don't try to debate me; I'm not saying that's how it is. I don't want to start another huge argument on this. It's just my opinion. They always seemed like America in WW2 in all the movies, always showing up just when things get really worse.  |
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Post by BugHunter on May 22, 2006 10:56:49 GMT -5
. . .
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Post by daft alchemist on May 22, 2006 12:07:41 GMT -5
I am never going to post after really long convos ever again...  |
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Jalathas
Forum Frequent
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
Posts: 1,076
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Post by Jalathas on May 22, 2006 14:18:45 GMT -5
I am never going to post after really long convos ever again... Yeah, even my post is longer then yours. That's pretty sad. |
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Post by daft alchemist on May 22, 2006 14:54:35 GMT -5
I'm not capable of ranting over Star Wars. Lord of the Rings definitely, but that's because I've read so much about Tolkien and Middle-earth and I know so much about all of it. And I'm obsessed with LotR. Can't forget that. |
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Post by Tassatul on May 22, 2006 17:09:19 GMT -5
What I meant was that twice you found a way to make my situation completely void before it even happened. I was pointing out that "if such a situation occured, such and such would happen." If it means death that kinda sucks. But if the Sith way leads to evil, and theres two sides to our discussion, wouldnt that imply that you thought the Jedi code is better? So wait. The Jedi wont preserve todays society, he'll just defence the poor and oppressed. But he also wont start a war/revolution to makes things better, and a Sith would. Whos the better person in this situation? Wouldn't you be the first to support someone impeaching Bush? Doesnt this make you a Sith, or at least less Jedi-ish? I just had a thought. We're you conceeding to me in that part? If so, thank you I didnt think of it in that way untill just now. Hes doing the same thing we are, comparing the Sith and Jedi but using our universe as a backdrop so its closer to home. You said yourself that questioning is good. (See the religious discussion) In the end, I concur with Jalathas, a balance is best. I guess what I'm arguing is that while both codes are flawed, I believe that the Sith were closer to the mark. I also cant think of any LoTR discussions we could have. : \ It doesnt have as readily available debate points to look at, I guess.
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Post by BugHunter on May 22, 2006 23:36:56 GMT -5
well it wasn't just a rant on just Star Wars. It kinda bordered along morality. And
everyone can relate in some way to morality.
The greatest enemy to a Jedi is not his opponent or the Sith, it is anger, hatred, and fear. So just as a Jedi must not fear losing, he also must not fear death. If he dies, he dies. It was just meant to be. Sure it sucks, but all the events that pass in the view of the big picture is greater than a single subject. Now mind u, it doesn't mean to just drop everything and give up. It just means knowing what cards you've been dealt.
Technically, yes. But a proper debating mentality calls for my personal opinions to be put to the side (for the most part) and deal mainly with the facts. Otherwise, everything I'm saying boils down to half-truth propaganda. Its the same thing when one deals with proper research, u must put your opinons aside and let the evidence speak for itself.
Once again, I'm not trying to prove who is better in the situation. I'm merely analysing what one side would do when a situation arises. It shall speak for itself if it is right or wrong.
A Jedi does not use things such as war to achieve change. If war is inevitable, then these are the things that are to pass. What a Jedi should do when he realizes that people are being screwed over is to try to fix things through non-violent methods. As for me, of course I would support impeaching Bush, but I know the reasons WHY he should be impeached. I dont want to get rid of him just because I hate him, that would be the politics of juveniles. And knowing why a poor leader should be removed does not make one a Sith.
Yes questioning is good. I'm not complaining, I'm just finding it interesting that I'm the only one actually defending a view. Perhaps its somebody else's turn for once. Instead of me constantly explaining the Jedi way, I'd like to hear why others think they're right for a change.
Like, if both codes are flawed, then why is the Sith way still closer to the mark? And what mark are you aiming at exactly? And why is the Jedi code still flawed?
Man, the Sith way is so easy to follow. Whatever the heck you think is right, just do it. Dont even have to worry about the consequences. How easy is that? But a wiseman once said, there's the easy way and then there's the right way.
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Post by daft alchemist on May 23, 2006 9:06:46 GMT -5
Hey, LotR has stuff to talk about. It has its own creation story and "religion" in a way as well. It's just cooler though because the gods of Middle-earth actually live in Arda. They chill over in Valinor, where the Elves go when they "pass on" or whatever it is Elves do. They originally lived in Valinor with the gods anyways.
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The way I see it, the only way something is going to change is some sort of revolution. Bloody, mostly likely. And yet, the Jedi try to preserve peace and harmony. Seems like, if our universes were put together, the Jedi would be standing next to the current power untill its too late (like they did with Palpatine). In my mind, the "match to light it up" would be a "Sith" who thought he could do better, and decided to take action rather than hope it gets better. 
