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[Tassatul]

bughunter said:

And Heaven isn't a fantasy, it's a real place and the Bible gives specific descriptions as to what it is. Sorry to say, but it is not a place where u continually indulge in your pleasures, at least in man's definition of pleasure. There are rewards in Heaven, though. This can only be because of His goodness and grace and not because of what is in us or what we do. They are His gifts to us...but for a reason: because He loves us. We'll be in Heaven to basque in His glory and glorify Him.

So here we are on Earth, not everything is perfect but at least some of the time we get to indulge in the things we like and take pleasure in them. One day, we die, and since we've been good people for the most part, we get into heaven. God radically changes our minds so that we no longer have ANY impulse to sin. Along with that, he changes our definition of pleasure. Now, instead of liking sunny afternoons and easter egg hunts and driving with friends, we find pleasure only in worship of god. And because our minds are altered, we dont see anything odd about this and go ahead and praise him for the rest of eternity.

Did I get that right?

[Deimos]

I don't quite think that's what Bughunter was getting at...at least I believe so

[BugHunter]

tassatul said:

bughunter said:

And Heaven isn't a fantasy, it's a real place and the Bible gives specific descriptions as to what it is. Sorry to say, but it is not a place where u continually indulge in your pleasures, at least in man's definition of pleasure. There are rewards in Heaven, though. This can only be because of His goodness and grace and not because of what is in us or what we do. They are His gifts to us...but for a reason: because He loves us. We'll be in Heaven to basque in His glory and glorify Him.

So here we are on Earth, not everything is perfect but at least some of the time we get to indulge in the things we like and take pleasure in them. One day, we die, and since we've been good people for the most part, we get into heaven. God radically changes our minds so that we no longer have ANY impulse to sin. Along with that, he changes our definition of pleasure. Now, instead of liking sunny afternoons and easter egg hunts and driving with friends, we find pleasure only in worship of god. And because our minds are altered, we dont see anything odd about this and go ahead and praise him for the rest of eternity.

Did I get that right?

No. God does not let anyone in Heaven that is seperated from Him. The call of God is to come back into fellowship with Him through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. When one accepts that Jesus has died for the forgiveness of their sins that is when the cleansing of your soul begins when the Holy Spirit enters inside you. The Bible says that once you are saved, you are never the same again; you are a new creature [2Cor. 5:17] and God won't let you stay in rebellion long. He will deal with you in whatever way is necessary to bring you back into fellowship with Him. In this aspect, its not just your mind He is changing, it's EVERYTHING.

Now listen to this, you could go through life being as sincere and as good as possible, it's still not enough. You dont please God by being good, but by accepting Christ. If you could get into Heaven by good works alone, then Jesus Christ died in vain [Gal. 2:21]. There is also another warning about this. If you are relying on your sincerity, then you are saying because you are sincere, you are therefore good enough, on your own, to be with God. You must realize that appealing to sincerity alone is to appeal to pride, because you are appealing to something that is in YOU and not in God, for your reason to go to Heaven. This is why, sincerity is not enough. You must have faith in Jesus.



I really suggest that you should check this website out if you honestly want to find out everything about God (that and the Bible, or stop by a church every now and then). It will help you with your questions A LOT. www.carm.org/objections.htm



Here's another really good exerpt from that site:
Objection: I am not that bad a person.
Whether or not you feel you are bad or good is not the real issue. The Bible says that all have sinned (Rom. 3:23). If all have sinned, good or bad, then all will suffer the judgment of God. God does not require someone to be pretty good; He requires that he not sin at all. But He knows that you cannot be sinless. That is why He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
The Bible says that our good works are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). It isn't saying that we might not try to be good. It is saying that whatever good we do, it is not good enough. It also says that there is none who does good (Rom. 3:12). The standard God seeks is perfection. We cannot please God on our own. That is why Jesus died on behalf of sinners. If you want to be good enough, then you must let God see you through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. That is the only goodness that counts to God.


Here's an exerpt that answers your issue, Sarah:
objection: I can't believe in a God who would send people to Hell.
Hell was originally created for Satan and his angels. In the future it will contain those who join Satan in rejecting God. If you reject God's provision for the forgiveness of your sins, then you will join the Devil who rejected God from the beginning. Is that what you want?
Could you believe in a God who would become a human, suffer at the hands of humans, and be killed by them, all so that His death could be the payment for their sins? That is extremely loving. God is saving people who deserve to go to Hell - and we all deserve that. Remember that the same God that sends people to Hell also died for them. If they reject what God has provided, then what is God left to do? He would have to judge them.
Whether you believe in something or not does not change the fact of its existence. Jesus spoke often of Hell (Matt. 25:41-46; Mark 9:47-48; Luke 16:19-31), and warned us so we would not go there. Would you say Jesus didn't know what He was talking about?
Are you implying that it is unjust for God to send people to Hell? If so, then you accuse God of injustice. Sin is wrong and it must be punished. What would you have God do to those who oppose Him and do evil? Do you want Him to ignore that which is wrong? Do you want Him to turn His head and not be holy and righteous?


These are tough pills to swallow, but its gotta be done.
objection: I don't want to give up what I like doing.
Are you saying you must stop doing what you're doing now, if you become a Christian? That means you know it is wrong. Let me ask you something. If you were to become a Christian, and God was to live in your heart, and you looked back upon your life, would you say to yourself now, "I did a lot of things I wish I hadn't done?" Probably so. The Bible speaks about just such a thing. In Rom. 6:21 it says, "What benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed, for the outcome of those things is death," (NASB). What you are saying is that God will require you to give up certain things that you like to do. Since God only wants what is good and right, and you say you don't want to give up what you are doing, then you are saying you want what is wrong.
Will you let your pleasures get in the way of salvation? Is your life of sin worth an eternity of pain? Jesus said, "What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?" (Mark 8:36).


objection: I am already good enough.
How good do you have to be to get to Heaven? God is holy, and requires holiness. Holiness is purity. Even though you may think you are good enough, even one sin disqualifies you from being in the presence of God. You could never be good enough. That is why you need Jesus.
The Bible says that there is none good enough. "There is none who does good, there is not even one," (Rom. 3:12). Goodness is measured by God's standard - not yours.
To say that you are good enough means that Christ did not have to die. But He did die to save sinners. The Bible says if righteousness can come by good deeds, then Christ didn't need to die (Gal. 2:21), but He did, so being good isn't enough.


oh man, this one is really really good:
objection: I am already religious.
Who said God wants you to be religious? He wants a relationship with you. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Christianity is God reaching man. 1 Cor. 1:9 says that God wants you to have fellowship with Jesus. He is talking about a relationship, Someone you can talk to. He doesn't want to weigh you down with a bunch of do's and don't's. He wants to extend a loving hand to you, and help you live a good clean life. But that cannot be done until the real problem in you is done away with, and that is sin. Sin separates you from God (Isaiah 59:2). If you want salvation instead of "religion," then go to Jesus. Seek Him. He will never let you down.



By the way, the focus of Easter is suppost to be the resurrection of Jesus, not eggs and bunnies. although painting eggs is fun.

[daft alchemist]

Ok, the posts just got too long for me to care anymore...

[BugHunter]

well at least out of courtesy read it, please...

[daft alchemist]

Ok, I have something to say now.

bughunter said:

In the future it will contain those who join Satan in rejecting God. If you reject God's provision for the forgiveness of your sins, then you will join the Devil who rejected God from the beginning.

Since God only wants what is good and right, and you say you don't want to give up what you are doing, then you are saying you want what is wrong.

Ok, to the first part I chose, if you reject God and get sent to a place where everyone who rejected God hangs out, why would they have reason to be mean and evil to you? I don't think they would torture you for not believing in God, and who's to say that they would torture you just for the hell of it because they've already rejected God? If I was running a place like that (which I'm not), I would welcome everyone who ended up there because it's almost like a club or an organization or something. I mean, I know the devil isn't trustworthy and all, but I don't think he'd sadisticly torture people who are in the same boat as he is.

To the second part, I get that if I don't want to change it's because I'm wrong. And, honestly, I really don't care that I'm wrong. And what defines "wrong" anyway? Back in the medieval era, people weren't allowed to claim ownership on books they wrote because the church considered that to be Pride. Now you see author names on every book, and if you use something from that book, you had damn well better cite it or you'll go to jail for not acknowleding that the author wrote the words and you didn't. That seems to be an extreme difference from the medieval era. Pride runs amock nowadays. You have the Olympics, Nobel Prizes, literary awards, Oscars, Grammys, Academy Awards, the awards for TV shows (don't remember what it's called), Cribs (where the sole purpose of the show is to show off big, beautiful, expensive houses), and so many other things that people eat up anymore because it's all over the friggin' media. Religion is becoming obscured. You have the rappers who write songs about "hos" and "pimpin" and then they thank God Almighty for allowing them to have this opportunity to sing about the hos and receive this beautiful music award as well. Religion is being taken advantage of. My English professor said that in a city not far from where he grew up, the KKK petitoined at Christmas time saying that they should be able to put up a huge flaming cross in the city square because there was a Christian manger scene and a big Jewish star or some such symbol, and that their "religion" wasn't being represented. And they won. They got to put their big flaming cross right up next to baby Jesus. It's almost to the point where religion can't be properly handled anymore because people are too Greedy and Prideful to let someone else's religious symbol be seen. We are at the point where if you can't let everyone represent their religion, then no one can. Kids aren't even allowed to have Easter or Christmas parties in school anymore, but you can bet your butt they still have a Halloween party every year. I guess as far as elementary schools go, the Pagans win out in the end.

</rant>

[Tassatul]

daftalchemist said:

Ok, I have something to say now.

bughunter said:

In the future it will contain those who join Satan in rejecting God. If you reject God's provision for the forgiveness of your sins, then you will join the Devil who rejected God from the beginning.

Since God only wants what is good and right, and you say you don't want to give up what you are doing, then you are saying you want what is wrong.

Ok, to the first part I chose, if you reject God and get sent to a place where everyone who rejected God hangs out, why would they have reason to be mean and evil to you? I don't think they would torture you for not believing in God, and who's to say that they would torture you just for the hell of it because they've already rejected God? If I was running a place like that (which I'm not), I would welcome everyone who ended up there because it's almost like a club or an organization or something. I mean, I know the devil isn't trustworthy and all, but I don't think he'd sadisticly torture people who are in the same boat as he is.

Damn, beat me to the punch Sarah. Yup, seems like if the main dude who rejected god was being sent more people who felt the same way as him, he wouldnt be torturing them, but more along the lines of recruiting them.

[Cobra5]

daftalchemist said:

Ok, to the first part I chose, if you reject God and get sent to a place where everyone who rejected God hangs out, why would they have reason to be mean and evil to you? I don't think they would torture you for not believing in God, and who's to say that they would torture you just for the hell of it because they've already rejected God? If I was running a place like that (which I'm not), I would welcome everyone who ended up there because it's almost like a club or an organization or something. I mean, I know the devil isn't trustworthy and all, but I don't think he'd sadisticly torture people who are in the same boat as he is.

I've heard two different things on this subject- one, that Satan suffers alongside those others who have rejected God, or, that it is satan's job to punish them. I don't know which is true to whichever religions, but look- Who cares about the details? Hell is where the wrong are punished. Yes?

If you choose to follow a religion that dosn't follow that idea, then whatever. Most, if not all, religions, have some form or other of after-life punishment.

To the second part, I get that if I don't want to change it's because I'm wrong. And, honestly, I really don't care that I'm wrong. And what defines wrong anyway? Back in the medieval era, people weren't allowed to claim ownership on books they wrote because the church considered that to be Pride. Now you see author names on every book, and if you use something from that book, you had damn well better cite it or you'll go to jail for not acknowleding that the author wrote the words and you didn't. That seems to be an extreme difference from the medieval era.

Many things have improved since then. Power can corrupt, and people can learn. Would you rather a world where people don't have the ability to choose right from wrong at all? this argument seems to be against your point.

As for the comment that it was the church that was corrupt, again, power corrupts. Its that simple. Humans can be good or evil, regardless of position in any institution, including church.

Remember, religion isn't the focus.

Pride runs amock nowadays. You have the Olympics, Nobel Prizes, literary awards, Oscars, Grammys, Academy Awards, the awards for TV shows (don't remember what it's called), Cribs (where the sole purpose of the show is to show off big, beautiful, expensive houses), and so many other things that people eat up anymore because it's all over the friggin' media. Religion is becoming obscured.

There will always be evil in the world, always, and of course religion will be obscured. Again, would you rather have a world where good and religion is forced on you?

You have the rappers who write songs about "hos" and "pimpin" and then they thank God Almighty for allowing them to have this opportunity to sing about the hos and receive this beautiful music award as well. Religion is being taken advantage of.

My English professor said that in a city not far from where he grew up, the KKK petitoined at Christmas time saying that they should be able to put up a huge flaming cross in the city square because there was a Christian manger scene and a big Jewish star or some such symbol, and that their "religion" wasn't being represented. And they won. They got to put their big flaming cross right up next to baby Jesus.

These two, same points as above. Evil will exist in the world, no matter the position or orginization, even if that organization claims to be holy.

It's almost to the point where religion can't be properly handled anymore because people are too Greedy and Prideful to let someone else's religious symbol be seen. We are at the point where if you can't let everyone represent their religion, then no one can. Kids aren't even allowed to have Easter or Christmas parties in school anymore, but you can bet your butt they still have a Halloween party every year. I guess as far as elementary schools go, the Pagans win out in the end.

So... what is the point here? That we as a people are moving away from religion? I think that is because oif arguments like these, where people nitpick over meaningless details that, in the end, really have no reflection on a person's belief. Without questioning what other people tell us, of course, we would remain ignorant oppressed. But only to a point... people are going to far with it if you ask me.

I think its worth noting that from personal experience so far, many, many, many more atheist people have tried to convert me to their religion then any other.




On a final note, Sarah, points from before I wasn't able to comment on at the time. If you feel that that... "Darkness" in you (I still have no idea what exactly that means, but that's not important) dosn't make you a bad person, then what makes you think you would have to give it up?

[daft alchemist]

I can't say why I'd have to give the dark spots up, but I just would.

And I wasn't arguing or anything, I was just having fun with ranting. Your post kind of felt like you were trying to squelch everything I said, even moreso since I was the only person you quoted and other people have been debating this as well. Not cool dude.

[Tassatul]

admin said:

I've heard two different things on this subject- one, that Satan suffers alongside those others who have rejected God, or, that it is satan's job to punish them. I don't know which is true to whichever religions, but look- Who cares about the details? Hell is where the wrong are punished. Yes?

If it is Satan's job to punish us, why is he portrayed as the evil doer who tricks and hates humans? And, isnt god eternally forgiving? LIke 5 minutes in hell would be enough probably to convince me I'm sorry for what I did, so should hell just be a short excursion?

Many things have improved since then. Power can corrupt, and people can learn. Would you rather a world where people don't have the ability to choose right from wrong at all? this argument seems to be against your point.


As for the comment that it was the church that was corrupt, again, power corrupts. Its that simple. Humans can be good or evil, regardless of position in any institution, including church.

This is from Dune: Power attracts the corruptable. It may be irrelevant, but its from Dune, so there.

There will always be evil in the world, always, and of course religion will be obscured. Again, would you rather have a world where good and religion is forced on you?

Do we really have a choice? A once read a friends argument that went something like this: "God is having an election. If you vote for him, you are saved. If you do not vote for him, you go to hell. If you choose not to vote, you go to hell. Also, no matter the number of votes, god always wins."

On a final note, Sarah, points from before I wasn't able to comment on at the time. If you feel that that... "Darkness" in you (I still have no idea what exactly that means, but that's not important) dosn't make you a bad person, then what makes you think you would have to give it up?

As for the "darkness" part, I think I have an idea of what she means. Take for example, I find it fun to get stupidly drunk on some occasions. This is a direct breakage of a commandment, as my parents obviously do not approve of underage drinking, especially when it relates to one of their own children. Its also probably a bad thing to do in its own right. Does this make me a terribly bad person? I enjoy it, I dont abuse it, so whats the difference? Maybe it will send me to hell, but i dont see how i could ever be sorry for it. It was/is fun.

[BugHunter]

Look, for the whole pointing out of how screwed up the world is and we're all suppossedly moving away from all that is good or whatever -- just because everyone else in the world is evil doesn't mean you should be evil as well. And I thought kids today were past peer pressure, hehehe.

And Sarah, dont feel like you're under a microscope. Will is just giving his usual rhetort that he always does. Besides, he's not trying to bully you with it. And if he is or isn't, just roll with the punches, know wut i mean?



Now Satan and Hell.
Satan is not a god, he is still a creature created by YHWH**. Just like us, he has no power of his own except for that which is granted him by God. I'm doing a bit of research here and I dont seem to find that Satan is in charge of punishing us. It is God who punishes, not Satan. Yes, He is a forgiving God, but he is also a Righteous one. It is true that Satan is a trickster and a lord of lies. He tricked Eve into taking the apple. Also, if you look at the story of Job, God and Satan had a conversation about Job, who was the most upright person in all the world and was in favor of God. Job was also extremely rich and wealthy, etc. Satan told God that Job would send curses to God if everything he had was destroyed and taken away. It was not until God said ok that Satan was allowed to do anything to Job, but God knew that Job would not denounce Him. What Satan wants to do is throw darts of doubt and deception in our direction so that we lose faith in God. His purpose is to test our faith; make us think that doing what God doesn't want us to do is ok. He wispers in our ears to pursuade us off of the straight and narrow path. There is also no evidence that Satan can read our minds. Knowing our thoughts is only attributed to God. And the idea that Satan is creating an army of the unsaved to wage war on God is in the realm of comic book fantasy. I dont recall stumbling across any scripture that says that.

Hell as a place of punishment of course is true. I dont recall any scripture that says that you are tortured by others there. Little demons carrying wips appears to be from the comic book realm as well. The Bible does say that when you are brought up for God's judgement, you stand alone. No peers, no friends, no nothing. And when it says that when you are caste into the lake of fire, it doesn't say anything that you can hang out with your buddies who went down there with you. I think that when you are down in Hell, you're all by yourself. It also says that Hell is a place of seperation of God. God is everything that is holy and good. If you're completely separated from that, well all thats left is suffering, so you suffer even if there's no little demon with a whip to torture you. Thats what I feel anyway. I'm gonna keep a lookout for any word on this.



As for the "i dont want to get rid of my darkness" thing. Once again, God in His infinite wisdom understands that mankind can no longer be perfect. Thats why He sent down Jesus to save our sorry arses...


**By the way, YHWH (Yahweh) is the proper name of God in the ancient language of Hebrew. The actual pronunciation is up for debate since all we really have is the four letters YHWH (which is the English translation of the four Hebrew letters). It means "I AM" and derives from the verb "to be". In other words, when God gives his own name He says, "I AM that I AM". Just thought it'd be a nice little tidbit of information to share.

[daft alchemist]

"We were sent by he who is called 'I Am'!"
"Get out."
"It worked for Moses..." -Dogma

Sorry. Also irrelevant. I just remembered it because of the acronym thing. Also, I don't feel like talking about religion anymore. I'm being assaulted with it from too many angles, and I don't mean you guys so don't take it personally.

[BugHunter]

Wait, what? Yo Sarah, no one is trying to assault you, but whatever. And as i said before, I'm not talking about religion, i'm talking about a relationship with God. There is a huge difference.

and dont use movies like Dogma to shape your view on the Christian faith, seriously. Its a comedy.

[Tassatul]

Hey man, she said it was just an irrelevant aside, not that it was the basis for her belief.

Also, we need to consider beinging the conversation to an end. If Sarah doesnt want to talk about it anymore, thats a form of offence that, in my station of a great and wise moderator, I cannot allow. Unless she decides its okay.

[daft alchemist]

I said that I didn't mean you guys, Francis. Don't pull a me and take it personally. That's my job.

And it's really getting exhausting taling about religion and God and all this. Normally I love having debates like this, but I have so much stuff to do to move out of the dorm and so much crap I'm getting from my mom. I can't talk about religion anymore, sorry. You guys keep going if you'd like though.